Origami Screen Turns Windows into Solar Panels: Prevalent Architecture’s Ben Berwick Talks Solar

Richard Jacobs: Hello, this is Richard Jacobs with the Finding Genius podcast. My goal is to find exceptional people that are doing really cool and interesting things in their fields and interview them and get information out of them that you may not find when you just read an article about them online. I want to go deeper and find out the juicy stuff. So, we have Ben Berwick, he’s the founder and director of Prevalent Architecture. We are going to talk about solar panels, but essentially an origami version of solar panels. So you can use them in places you probably otherwise could not.

So, Ben, thanks for coming.

Ben Berwick: Thanks for having me.

Richard Jacobs: Yeah, I hope I got it right. Tell me about Prevalent, what’s the premise of the company and what do you guys do?

Ben Berwick: Right. So, Prevalent effectively is an architecture company. We are founded about three years ago, in 2017. So we’re looking in a way to move architecture away from what’s become almost a niche service back into prominence in a way. Leveraging sort of benefit of architecture, not just for a select few but really for the wider community. So architecture these days, depending on the country that you’re in roughly about 5% of constructive buildings are the land architects themselves. So we’re really looking at what can the architect does and how can we move them back into prominence? So in effect, Prevalent itself focuses on the advocation of sustainable systems within buildings within projects. And that’s a different range of scales. So all of the products are underpinned by a strong sustainability agenda through the use of material and synthesis with the national environment. And basically we create and implement their systems, whether that’s in most standard regular buildings, a larger scale, or whether it’s in sort of smaller product space applications such as a origami screen.

Richard Jacobs: So this is primarily for solar, for personal use or what do you imagine the uses of this would be?

Ben Berwick: Yeah, so maybe I should explain a little bit what the origami screen is first. It is a window screen because new windows can’t replace curtains in a way. Its 20 millimeters deep. We call it like a path through the solar retrofit device. And we link the grid and natural elimination of any total environment like an apartment or an office building or a hospital. Anywhere with solar access with windows, we link that relationship, all of the internal elimination with any degeneration. So yeah, I mean we have a really quite a wide range of uses.

Richard Jacobs: Well what about the storage capacity? Like imagining my room in my house. There’s plenty of places where it’d be nice to collect solar energy. But what about storing it so I can collect it? I was going to ask you, okay. Like, let’s say I have this one big wall in my house that is just sitting there. What if I put solar on it? Can I store it and over time, would that be a substantial amount of energy or do I have to use it as I collected?

Ben Berwick: Yeah. So, we’re looking at the two different options and one is running back into the grid from the solar panels themselves. And although it would be to store in batteries within an apartment or within a building. So for a lot of people, there’s a field called building-integrated photovoltaics and that’s dealing with effectively solar cells that may be on the facade of a building. Sort of on the outside of the newly constructed buildings where our niche is most of looking at if you have a building that is already constructed that’s already existing which of course, yeah, I think by the year 2050, a 60% of buildings have already been constructed today that will be used in that year. So we’re really looking at the vast majority of buildings as opposed to a small newly constructed building. So in that sense, as opposed to putting the solar cells on the facade, we’re actually looking at areas where an individual user can put them, which is within the windows space. So you could be renting apartments. In that case, it might be more beneficial to run back to the grid. For all the cases it might be more beneficial to run back to a battery.

Richard Jacobs: Yeah, I would think landlords, unfortunately, may not be on board with people using solar. What have you seen when people are in apartments and stuff? I mean if I have this on the windows I have in my apartment, let’s say, is this going to be any substantial amount of solar, or is it kind of a minor the amount I can collect?

Ben Berwick: So, at the moment we have a three-year track to relate to answering your question in detail in terms of the actual research that’s involved because of the moment it’s quite an advanced geometry that where synthesizing for the window environment. We prefer to measure how to say the effect that you’re getting through the reflected light in your room or in your space. To give a sense of the feeling that you are generating electricity in terms of the amount we’d like to say that between maybe 6:00 AM and 6:30 AM, whilst you’re waking up, you’re getting this redirected light inside your room. And by the time you’ve woken up, you are getting enough electricity to palliate breakfast to make your breakfast for the day. This sort of thing. More tangible results to energy generation as opposed to the fuel number. However, that will come with the weather research is on the way.

Richard Jacobs: Why not go after landlords? If a landlord has a 20 unit building and you say to him, Hey, let’s cover the whole building and the solar stuff. And if he does, he can offer a very slight or not offer a very slight discount to the rents for his renters and then they would be using solar and I would think you’d get a lot more juice out of it, literally.

Ben Berwick: Right. So, we are looking at so many different applications. The product went public about a year ago. And from then we’ve had different inquiries from countries that you may not expect to interest in solar. From the very top of Norway and Canada to two countries around the equator sort of into South Australia. So we’ve had lots of interests of people in different parties and they have varied from individual users to people say in caravans and metal homes to entire hospitals, buildings, towers, energy companies, a whole range of different interested parties. So, in the end, there won’t be just one size fits all. Approaching a developer that’s creating a new building is one option in one way. Also, the end-user as well as the product itself, once it’s in mass production is also a feasible direction for us. So yeah, there are lots of different avenues with which the product can take.

Richard Jacobs: Well, that’s what I mean. In your analysis, what do you think will be the most fruitful ones? Like the most unique thing about what you do is what? The fact that its solar production is like origami and it could be put into spaces that really could be anywhere. It’s a much more variable footprint than where you can normally go?

Ben Berwick: That is definitely one of the benefits. But the main unique aspect of what we’re doing is a solar cell itself is placed horizontally in the window in the screen itself. So we’re redirecting light across the surface of the solar cell and it’s reflecting back into the room. So the screen itself is made up of two different aspects. One is a solar cell and then there’s an optical coating that’s printed onto that. The optical coding splits lie between visible and infrared spectrums. So the visible is reflected back into the room, kind of like a light tunnel or a light channel. And the infrared itself is absorbed by the solar cell for energy. So in that way, within creating a brighter internal environment so you’re getting more light redirected inside and then you’re also generating electricity. So that’s the really unique aspect and we know that health is really related to natural elimination. And this is sort of an ongoing area of research that’s becoming quite prominent as well as our cities become denser. So we’ve had a number of hospitals looking at the relationship between health and their patients in wards and that sort of space. I’m looking at a screen like this to redirect light deeper inside the floor plate natural elimination and then also generate electricity to probably cover the cost and then also later in its life generate energy that way as well. So, I mean, that’s really the unique aspect of it.

Richard Jacobs: All, right. What’s the quality of the infrared that you’d capture? What kind of efficiency do you get and so you’re capturing it then where does the electricity go? What could it be used for?

Ben Berwick: So, I mean, whatever you were capturing go into a small transformer walk, and then it can go back into the grid or into a battery to be used by whatever end-user would require that for. So, so in a sense, the energy can be used for anything as it is going back to the grid.

Richard Jacobs: But again, the quality is good enough even though it’s infrared and not like, let’s say full-spectrum?

Ben Berwick: Yeah. So you’d be getting infrared. A bit of UV as well. Depending on the solar cell that we’re using and it will capture more energy from different spectrums. So we’re focusing on ones that are infrared and UV as opposable light and visible light is such a small part of any generation of some solar cells. So in that sense, it is not completely different. You’ll even find a lot of solar cells, more traditional Silicon that it plays in a public building. They have a lot of problems with reflection and glare that have produced from them. So in a sense, that’s how we came up with this. There is this problem entry reflected coatings are really quite a big business on solar cells. So why don’t we explore what’s at a Nanoscale and enter the code into an actual screen and use those reflections for the benefit of people inside internal buildings that aren’t getting much natural light.

Richard Jacobs: So even existing solar cells, I mean, I don’t know if this would lay over the solar cell. I mean, can you take your learnings and make coding for existing solar cell coverings for the glass or whatever it is and but using the same methodology that you’re using. Have you thought about that?

Ben Berwick: Right. So we’re actually researching the two different universities here in Sydney and one is focusing on the optical coating that is going onto the printed solar cell. I believe there is one company in Switzerland that is currently producing, starting to produce one of these coatings for building integrated multiple takes for the facade. So where you can alter the color and the effect that you’re getting to the solar cells. So you can have a red one, a white one, a blue one. It’s quite an emphacy. But that does exist. So you can change the visual effect of social sell. Our research is taking that in a way one step further. As opposed to varying the color, we’d probably stick with the white because once you’re reflecting lights, the light that’s reflected off of that is then obviously influenced by the surface. So for whiter light inside, we’re using a white coating. What’s interesting for us is to vary the reflectivity of that surface.

So if we have greater reflectivity, reflecting more light insights and you’re generating less electricity, less reflectivity, you’re absorbing more lights so you’re having more energy effects, more any generated but less light like the inside. So in a sense the current interest that we have from different parties around the world, it really depends. People in no way in Northern Canada they wanted greater natural elimination. That was something they really focused on. So for them having a more reflective circle surface makes a little more sense. For other people say in Australia there’s some town, they were really faced west and get quite a hot sun in the afternoon. So they wanted in effects, almost no reflectivity on it for it to absorb all the energy and to not transfer light back inside the apartment.

Richard Jacobs: Sunlight changes throughout the day. Morning light is different from the afternoon and evening. I mean, how sophisticated are our solar cells? Are they at the point yet where depending on the time of day, they’ll harvest light in a certain way or not and change their characteristics? Maybe they use like PSO electrics or something to change the nature of the reflectivity. So it allows certain frequencies in and not others to go along with, again, the natural variations in light.

Ben Berwick: Right, exactly. So for the end-user that would depend on the orientation that the window is facing, of course to what kind of light they’re getting, whether it’s morning afternoon or during the day. For us, it’s a geometric question. So the solar cells are placed horizontally in a screen within the window. And then the front of the screen itself. If you open and close the screen side to side, like Constantina, the front of the screen is soft, so it’ll rotate and the rotation adapts to the different changes of light throughout the day. So because a large part of this is redirecting light inside, sometimes you will want a lot of like inside all the times you won’t. It could be distracting, for example. So if you open and close a screen, say 50% open and closed or 80%, the actual geometry of the screen hinges almost like an elbow to redirect light different in different ways inside. So yeah, so we’re answering this in like a geometrical question attempts the origami itself. The origami is related to because we’re printing the solar cells flats effectively and folding shape. This is why we’re using origami. And then from that three-dimensional shape, the opening-closing of the screen and the constant name of the screen itself redirects light in different ways inside based on different times of the day. So yeah, I mean urban life is very, very complicated. You have buildings in front of you, you have different reflections, you have different times of the year as well as different times of the day. In effect, you design a custom panel that relates to that would not be feasible. So in a sense that using to actually open and close the screen a little bit to change the effect they’re getting.

Richard Jacobs: Is it possible to do a mini little transformer so that you could have a solar covering on a window and plug it into the wall? It goes through a tiny little transformer. You plug it in the wall and if it’s configured properly, but it feeds electricity back through the wires in the wall and generates it that way.

Ben Berwick: Technically I believe you can. It depends on the regulation of the country to which you’re installing it. I think in America you cannot but yes you can. So I mean that is quite an efficient mechanism with which you could generate electricity back to the grid, transfer back to the grid. It just depends on the regulation of the country. And in terms of the tariffs with which you’re putting energy and you’re taking energy out and how the system works

Richard Jacobs: Well, would you consider that I mean, you think that’s a great application of it, or what’s your thought there? If you could have your dream, what would it look like right now? How would your devices be used and what would they do?

Ben Berwick: Right. So it’d be in any generally urban contexts. So, in a city as an architect, we face this with cities are becoming obviously more and more populated, denser. In a way to live in a city is quite a sustainable argument and it’s generally a good thing, but we’re seeing now it’s becoming slightly less healthy due to less lighten yoga links and health and light is so inexplicably linked. So to have this in areas where you’re having just such little lights and a lot of apartments, you have this that would be one of the main goals to having a lot of different apartments and to increase internal elimination and natural elimination of the apartments themselves. And that’s one major goal. Other major goals would be to have it in hospitals and areas of health and to see the actual health benefits, all the lights on the hospital wards, and different areas. It’s also an argument to be said about the productivity of workers. Some officers have seen productivity increases of up to 60% by using natural elimination as opposed to artificial. These are really massive increases and it becomes quite an economical argument once you explain it that way. And especially to the businesses. Once you base it on productivity then it becomes almost a no brainer. So there are so many different aspects and applications for the device because natural elimination is related to everything that we do.

Richard Jacobs: Yep. Definitely. So how’s the reception been? What kinds of businesses are interested and which ones sadly, surprisingly are not?

Ben Berwick: So we put product public with the Lexus design award about a year ago. And the response was quite phenomenal. We had many, many thousands of articles around the world just discussing the project. From that, we had many different interested parties from some of the world’s biggest energy companies that they were quite interested in. I believe some still leverage it for their gain in a way to be green. And as you know, this is something we could be doing. So there has been support from energy companies in terms of image and branding and marketing. In terms of finance collaboration, not yet. And the response from the public has been overwhelming. So we exhibited in Milan design week last year. At that point, I think there are about 60,000 people at POS through the exhibition. It was basically unanimous support. It’s quite an unusual technology that we’re developing and nothing really exists quite like it yet. And so in that sense to test the public opinion was really, really crucial to actually see, you know, people interested in this as this is something that could be the future of how we do window furnishings in a way. And the answer seemed to be yes. So yeah, a lot of individuals, a lot of hospitals, a lot of different universities, energy companies a couple of governments around the world, two different countries who are quite interested. And yeah, it really, really varies. When it comes down to it and when it comes down to securing funding, it becomes a different story.

Richard Jacobs: Yeah, it’s true.

Ben Berwick: But now we are going for Australian government grants, which do seem to be promising,

Richard Jacobs: Okay. And again, how much energy can be created based on someone’s average window or the way in which someone will use on average, do you have calculations or as a handy guide, if you have a window covering of this size, then this is about what you’ll get, et cetera.

Ben Berwick: Yeah, that’s the question that’s being asked. Look, we’ve done geometrical prototypes that working every time, but not yet generating the electricity. We’ve also done ones with the solar cells. But not all into shape to combine the two to do a fully working prototype is our next step. And from that, we’ll be able to get the numbers.

So a little bit of a way off yet. Just to the complexity of the system.

Richard Jacobs: Have you looked at fractals for the design of the screen itself or any of the elements of the solar system? Because I mean nature uses them a lot and they used antennas that work really well. So maybe it’s just something to think about.

Ben Berwick: Right, in a sense it’s not completely different. In a way, its component-based system or repeating elements and those repeating elements do change shape and distort over time based on the input of the user to open and close the screen. In a sense, it is based on natural elements in its very core. However, once you come to production processes that we have inevitably had to arrive at some of that will slink away. But it definitely is still based there. It is still is a repeating element, repeating all of the changes slightly in the homes. Beyond that though, in terms of actual relation to fractals, you know, not exactly.

Richard Jacobs: Okay. Yeah, that was just an idea. So, well, very good. Well, is this available where what countries and how can listeners find out more? How can they see it, watch a video and experience it and hopefully maybe order one, not now but sooner?

Ben Berwick: Right. So there’s more information available on prevalent.archi. So that’s website prevalent. A-R-C-H-I and at the moment we are in the research phases with two different universities in Australia. We are taking interest in the website. That helps build a case for funding effectively. At the moment we’re applying for government grants. Hopefully, we’re reaching production maybe in the next three years. It would be nice to do. There is a lot involved in terms of mechanism, in terms of coatings research as well. So sometime within the next three years. Although we hope to have a working prototype within the next year.

Richard Jacobs: Okay. Well, very good. Ben thanks for coming. It’s a great idea. I mean, it has a ton of applications. I think it will be a fantastic thing. So, I hope you get going on it and like I said, you have a success tonight. I’m able to get one soon. Thank you for being here.

Ben Berwick: Thank you, Richard.